Legislature(1997 - 1998)
02/27/1997 03:00 PM House HES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 145 - TEACHING COMPETENCY EXAM FOR CERTIF Number 1622 CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the next item on the agenda was HB 145, "An Act relating to certification of teachers." He said there was a committee substitute as well as public testimony regarding the committee substitute. Number 1632 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER made a motion to adopt the committee substitute for HB 145 as the committee's working document. Hearing no objections CSHB 145(HES) was now before the committee. Number 1647 STEPHEN McPHETRES, Executive Director, Alaska Council of School Administrators, was first to testify. He said, upon listening to the testimony on HB 145 at the previous committee meeting, concerns were raised. While his organization supports the concept of teacher testing, they are concerned to the degree and to the complexity of what the testing should be. The initial bill, a very basic examination for future teachers coming into the state, would be supported by his organization. As more complex ways of evaluation for preservice teachers to the state are developed, his organization becomes concerned. The concern raises out of the fact that we need to have a substantial talent base on which to choose competent teachers for our schools. MR. McPHETRES said, at the April job fairs in the state of Alaska, there were 820 potential teaching candidates that came to the state for interviewing in 1992, in 1996 there were 672. For the number registered with the Alaska teacher placement office; in 1992 there were 1,182 and in 1996 there were 890. The trend is a drop in potential candidates. As decision makers we can provide all kinds of gates to get through, but it is still those administrators, school boards, teachers and communities who have to find a selection of competent people in the classroom. MR. McPHETRES encouraged the legislature, as we look at setting up another gate for people coming into the state, to be consistent with other states in the Pacific Northwest. Many of Alaska's teachers come from those states. If we look at various states including; Oregon, Washington, Montana, California, Idaho and Michigan, the current trend is that when a person completes their graduate or undergraduate program in education they automatically take the National Teaching Exam (NTE). Their score on this exam determines states where they meet qualifications for certification. He hoped that Alaska would look at staying consistent with other states in order to remain competitive. Number 1771 CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked if he was saying that the same vehicle could be used to test potential Alaska teachers, if he was saying that there should be some kind of reciprocity if potential teachers have passed the test when they leave the University of Washington, they would be grandfathered into Alaska. Number 1786 MR. McPHETRES suggested that if they have taken the NTE somewhere and have reached the score that Alaska deems as an acceptable score, certification could be offered. Number 1809 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this assumes that we use the same test. Number 1812 MR. McPHETRES repeated that we should be somewhat consistent with what other states are doing in order to remain competitive. Number 1822 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked, without the state administered teacher certification, if local school administrators have the tools needed to be able to select competent teachers. Number 1855 MR. McPHETRES said the scores give a certain amount of confidence in the community. It adds one more level of validation that this person is competent for the job. As far as evaluation tools for the candidate, he believed the answer was yes. Hiring practices are much broader than when he first started in administration back in the early 1970s. Back then it was basically God who made the decision. Now the local principal, with a parent group and/or staff, sits down and goes through all the applications, does all the screenings and then brings their recommendations to the board. Number 1895 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he was not familiar with the NTE. Number 1914 MR. McPHETRES said the test was developed across the country and is nationally recognized by universities and states have used it subsequently to determine certification eligibility. "Our universities do administer that examination now, it would in Alaska." It tests on basic knowledge and the area of the teacher's expertise. Number 1930 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked, in his opinion as a school administrator, if the NTE would serve the function that is being purported in this bill. He asked if the NTE was ever considered for the state of Alaska's exam. MR. McPHETRES said the teacher certification task force has discussed this exam. Universities administer that exam. Number 1959 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN presented a scenario where he is interested in hiring someone in a technical specialty such as current technology, computer science or multi-media. He asked if, before that person comes in and teaches in the classroom, they needed a teacher's certificate. Number 1980 MR. McPHETRES said they need a teaching certificate if they are going to be a full time teacher in control of the classroom. There are recognized expert certificates that often can be given for short term periods. He said there are computer specialists located in most schools in major municipalities and added that the district wide teachers are also certified for technology. Number 2004 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN enhanced his scenario that someone in the computer industry, who is involved with multi-media, is interested in sharing his knowledge with youth. This person has offered to teach classes for a year. He asked if they would be required to have a teaching certificate to do that. Number 2030 MR. McPHETRES said they would not be required to have a teaching certificate as long as they were under the supervision of another certified teacher. If you were a district-wide technology specialist and a computer industry person wanted to come in to teach, a deal could be worked out where the computer industry person could come in for an hour here and there. It could be worked out to accommodate that person. The computer industry person could not teach if they were going to be in complete control of the class. The unfortunate part is that we are looking at alternative ways for people to get into the teaching field without going through a four year degree program. He mentioned that several people are interested in doing this. He referred to a person involved in real estate and business and said that person has to go through all the preliminary preparation courses that a freshman in college has to go through. Number 2085 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked if this proposed examination would be a barrier to what they are trying to do. Number 2091 MR. McPHETRES said it would not be a barrier. People should be able to demonstrate a basic skill in all these areas. Number 2100 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he is not necessarily opposed to alternative ways to certification, but we have experienced people who are experts in the field who are lousy teachers. He did not think that public schools were a place where we should allow people to hobby teach if they cannot demonstrate a good job of teaching as well as skills. He was not referring to anyone cited as an example in testimony. It is essential for a good teacher to have good subject matter depth, but there is a difference between having subject matter depth and being a good teacher. Number 2187 MR. McPHETRES said a few years ago there was an alternative route to certification. He believed only four individuals took advantage of it. They went through a significant assessment examination to determine their personal skills in working with children. They were also involved in a mentoring program as well as some university things. The lack of interest set that program aside. Number 2150 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said three out of his five children are teachers in Oregon and California. In both states they have been hired to teach certain subjects, but for various circumstances they have been asked to teach other subjects of which they are not experts. He asked if Alaska did the same thing. He asked whether a person who passed a specific test, based on their ability to teach science, might be asked to teach physical education or something that they might not be qualified teaching. Number 2187 MR. McPHETRES said this happens, particularly in the rural schools. He referred to another example where this happened and said it is one of the things you have to do in order to fill out the curriculum for the kids. Number 2200 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said, "my concern is if that's the case, would it be an Achilles heel in the program to find whatever is the easiest test to pass to qualify there and then say, hey, but really I'm a science teacher or a math teacher or something. This is obviously taking this to an extreme, but I think you see where my concern is." Number 2214 MR. McPHETRES said all of us major in a discipline as we go through a college or university system and we should be able to demonstrate our mastery of our knowledge, whether it is orals or something else. In real life we do different things, so he did not believe that it is critical enough that there should be any discrimination between what they've tested and where they are actually working. Number 2236 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said there should be a higher level of concern for the physical education teacher teaching science. Number 2239 MR. McPHETRES said, in previous legislation, they are hoping to address that issue. TAPE 97-14, SIDE B Number 0000 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said, as he reads CSHB 145(HES), it gives DOE the flexibility to incorporate NTE, devise another test or find a test that incorporates the basic levels of competency in teaching and general subjects included in the state's core curriculum. He said this core curriculum will have to be developed. Alaska needs to get in line with other states that recognize this testing as a necessity. Number 0082 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said if we use an existing test or test vehicle, the fiscal note would be examined in detail by the House Finance Standing Committee. Number 0100 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN referred to the last meeting and said there was some mention of the appropriateness of inserting, "Type A", before, "teacher certificate" . He got the impression that the language was an appropriate adjustment to make. He asked why "Type A" was not inserted in CSHB 145(HES). Number 0141 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said regulation 4 AAC 12.020 reads that a regular certificate is a Type A, there is an assurance that what we are talking about is already in regulation. Number 0175 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN referred to Type C and D teaching certificates. Number 0178 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said CSHB 145(HES) will affect only Type A certificates which de facto affects Type B teaching certificates. Type C and D would not come under the provisions of this bill. Type C involve speech therapists, counselors and that sort of thing. Type D involve vocational education people. REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN clarified that a teaching certificate is not required for those categories. CHAIRMAN BUNDE said Type C and D are teaching certificates, but they're different types of teaching certificates. In his mind they are not classroom teachers. This bill addresses the vast majority of teachers who will be at the blackboard. REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked where the distinction between the Type A and Type C and D was included in the language of the bill. Number 0266 CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to page 1, Section 2(i), "for an initial regular teacher certificate" and said that is defined in regulation as a Type A teaching certificate. Number 0304 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN clarified that a regular teaching certificate is a Type A. Number 0361 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to move CSHB 145(HES) with attached fiscal notes and individual recommendations. Number 0382 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON objected to the motion. "At a time when we are trying to make government smaller and smarter, we're this, this is intrusive, there's times for, certainly for government to be intrusive." This bill is an effort to manage the inputs rather than the outputs of production. There needs to be quality standards for the goods and services we require, but there is always the tendency for the inexperienced manager to want to count the number of paper clips. Pupil testing measures outputs causing the organization and its resources to be tailored to that goal. Several people in the education field have said that it is easy to measure knowledge, but it is extremely difficult to measure the art. Teaching is more difficult to measure than anything else, you can only see it as it's being practiced. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he asked various administrative people, from 20 different communities, if the school board and the administration had the right tools to select competent teachers and they confirmed that they did. There was some concern that another gate to pass would make it difficult for the districts to obtain teachers. Many of the school districts he talked with were dealing with somewhat culturally difficult situations and they are very interested in teachers who can relate to the population and the culture. Those people do not see how an objective test was going to help the key thing that they have to look for in a teacher. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he is most concerned by the fact that CSHB 145(HES) did not test existing teachers. He said the one consistent result from teacher testing, obtained from every group he has been able to contact nationally, is that it provides significant salary raises for all the teachers in the entire system. Arkansas and Virginia could not find teachers who could pass the test and work for the wage packet they had, so they raised the incoming salaries. Those states then had to raise the salaries for the existing teachers. Number 0620 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said, with the national standard teaching test, we have the very tool we need. Any district which feels that they need more help, can apply this tool. Number 0635 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this bill will screen out unqualified teachers, letting a few pass while the vast majority will not have any problem with the examination. He said, working on that issue for two years, the same school board members who assure you that they have the adequate tools to hire competent teachers asked for a change in tenure because they had incompetent teachers they were unable to get rid of without legislative assistance. Number 0672 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN referred to Representative Dyson's statement that testing in unnecessary, yet it would make him feel better if testing was done for existing teachers as well. Number 0687 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he is wary of any profession that creates an incumbent group and then sets up a barrier for the next group. He referred to conversations with friends in the teaching field. They told him that it is interesting that their profession is one of the few where intellectual attainment tends to go down. Pressures of the classroom, social concerns, dealing with student difficulties and community relationships seems to keep the profession from growing intellectually. Reluctance to test existing teachers bothers him because it would protect a class of people and ensure increased wages for them. Number 0750 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said there is a fundamental legal problem with establishing a standard retroactively. He said over time, if we had this initial screening test, schools would encourage existing teachers to take the test and use it as a guide for inservice training. To apply it and then require a decertification would create legal problems. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he viewed this examination as an initial screening, much like the first test in becoming a police officer. He said this is a standard written examination taken before a person's talents, abilities and stabilities are taken into consideration. There is great efficiency in having a general screening test, it saves you a lot of time when you are looking at other things. Number 0847 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN referred to craft guilds in the Middle Ages which sought to limit the amount of participation in their activity in order to maintain control and ensure that they received significant economic benefits. The craft guilds were a major barrier to growth of the free market system. He said this bill seems to be something that the craft guild would look upon favorably. Number 0910 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said, having had the opportunity to work on the teacher certification task force for several years and as an ex- teacher, when he looked at the qualifications that are demanded of a teacher he would have had some questions about choosing the teaching profession. His first teaching job paid $6,200 a year and had he known the demands he would have questioned whether he should have gone into another field. He said he hoped he would have gone into teaching. He said we can lower the standards, we don't have to raise the wages. Number 0951 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said if there was the expectation that salaries would rise, he did not think Mr. Cyr would have talked about this bill. Number 1000 A roll call vote was taken on CSHB 145(HES). Representatives Porter, Brice, Green and Bunde voted yea. Representatives Dyson and Kemplen voted nay. Representative Vezey was absent for the vote. Chairman Bunde announce that CSHB 145(HES) was moved from the House Health, Education and Social Services Committee with individual recommendations and attached fiscal notes.
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